CodeBetter blog - Latest Comments

Re: OpenWrap 2.0.1–a better way to look at dependencies

amita sexana — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:56:57 -0000

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Re: Free OpenWrap workshop Saturday 10th December in Lier, Belgium

amita sexana — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:56:33 -0000

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Re: The new OpenEverything organization

amita sexana — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:56:10 -0000

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Re: #oredev ReST talk – Links, forms and Unicorns

amita sexana — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:55:34 -0000

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Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Key logger — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 06:50:39 -0000

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Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Dave Lane — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:04:32 -0000

Personally, I think MS is worthy of oblivion rather than salvation. But I respect your position - I wish you luck in your efforts, but I'll continue to invest my energy in the FOSS world (without MS).

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Jonathan C Dickinson — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:55:54 -0000

"All or nothing" is completely implausible for a company with a history/foundation like Microsoft: consumers simply don't pay for support contracts like corporates do (the exact reason money can be made off of Linux a. la. RHEL) - so how would they monetize Windows? They **do** have shareholders, you know, and they **are** accountable to them: down to the court of law. Your "how to fix this" doesn't touch on this substantial problem - and yet you complained about it.

Instead of telling them how they are doing it wrong (like basically every OSS zealot) explain how they could sustain their margins while they transition to a OSS model for all their software. I could go on forever but there is just so much you fail to address in your article: you have taken one side of the story and are ignoring the ramifications of the other side.

You can't just uproot a corporate/sales model like Microsoft that has been running for years overnight. Maybe The Gu will manage to get the whole company on board; after which they will have to figure out how to maintain their entrenchment; after which they realise they actually can't (positing: maybe they have had this discussion).

I am an OSS advocate, make no mistake, but OSS zealots (for want of a better word) like yourself would make a lot more headway by identifying and acknowledging the problems Microsoft would face and coming up with solutions, instead of spreading vitriol about them (which will lead them to never take you seriously). I have thought long and hard about how they would fix these issues (instead of complaining) and I haven't been able to come up with anything: I challenge you to create a viable business model. You won't find one.

Real ingenuity is saying, "Look if we open source .Net and ASP.Net people still need to buy Windows." Entrenchment is maintained and Microsoft doesn't get sued/abandoned by shareholders. People can use the code to debug (or provide patches) and everyone wins. Nobody would win if they willy-nilly open sourced everything: they wouldn't be able to afford the pay-cheques of the people responsible for maintaining it.

For the record I do like how you address the issues that you did. Just accept that there are some things that nobody can change (not even the folks at Microsoft, even if they wanted to); and instead search for solutions to the things you can change.

NB: The usage of the word "zealot" is by all means **not** derogatory.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Sebastien Lambla — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 05:59:56 -0000

On the other end of that spectrum, if every activist leaves to other platforms, the so called "pragmatists" will keep the fort. I think that even if you fight a losig battle,the result will still be better for the whole ecosystem if some of us stay.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Sebastien Lambla — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 05:57:28 -0000

Haha. Absolutely well spotted! I should really re-read my posts before clicking Publish. Thanks!

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Mark Rendle — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:50:20 -0000

Very well put, Seb. I wholeheartedly agree.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Christine — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:46:41 -0000

BTW, it wasn't Reagan who recognized China - it was Nixon.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Dave Lane — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 06:28:13 -0000

Sebastian, why are you bothering with MS? They're in the midst of an all mighty implosion. I'd be encouraging anyone heavily invested in using MS-only technologies to get clear of the fallout radius.

With regard to FOSS, MS is broken. You're quite right: they may well be "many companies" internally, but for those of us outside, it's irrelevant. One "company" might be positive towards a FOSS project (no doubt because MS' own internal competitor is crap, and the FOSS one is eating its lunch), and another might deftly put a knife in its back when it's not looking. The culture of MS is monopoly protection and profit maximisation within a monopoly context. There is no other way for them to be. They've painted themselves into a corner, culturally. The world is quickly rendering their entire mindset and "corporate DNA" (e.g. must be invented here, opacity: 1.0, software patent threats, funding FUD, embrace/extend/extinguish, etc.) a liability.

Ultimately, the FOSS world is vastly broader and deeper, and more resilient, than the "MS ecosystem". We don't need them, but we do need committed, principled, talented developers and project leaders. Do your own thing for sure, but I encourage you to do it without MS technologies, because that gives them leverage, and who knows how deviously they'll use it.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Rich3800 — Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:49:33 -0000

Ballmer: Thrown any chairs at anybody lately?

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

ray2k — Fri, 06 Apr 2012 09:07:00 -0000

*slow clap*

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

_Andy_B — Fri, 06 Apr 2012 00:53:10 -0000

Kevdog,

You are absolutely right, MS are under no obligation; special or otherwise, to join /collaborate with existing projects rather than rolling their own.

They are under no obligation to do it because perhaps it's the right thing to do for all the many .net devs out there.

Neither are they under obligation to have a healthy, prosperous and positive ecosystem for years to come.

They are under no obligation, but it may just be better than the status quo.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

João P. Bragança — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:45:49 -0000

A smarter company would be looking 30 years down the line instead of the bottom line right now. You buy your toothpaste from X manufacturer because their reputation goes back over a hundred years and you are pretty sure they are not going to put dog turds in it to stretch it out and cut costs. What is the point of fucking people over to make a quick buck now when they get butthurt and develop on some other platform? That only hurts them in the long run.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

mike suarez — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:49:06 -0000

i think the point is that microsoft can do whatever they please ... free world, free market , etc ... but by ignoring the OSS project at hand they r screwing the exact ppl that lead them to have a project on the first place ... hence cool ppl leaving or cool projects abandoned ... the community needs both

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Sebastien Lambla — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:28:14 -0000

So your argument is that they should do whatever they want, and as long as they have paying customers, there is no value in fostering and cultivating the ecosystem that lives on the platform?

If that's your argument, then I disagree because that's not how I want to be working with Microsoft: living in the fear that they'll just rebiuld and ship something I spent hours, months and years building. It's not pushing me to build more stuff if I want it used.

And that may well be where we disagree. For an OSS project I build to be used by my clients, and because it's the Microsoft platform, it'd better be successful or we'll get no adoption. If I get no adoption, I can't use it, I have no reason to build it. If you suck the air out of an environment and I can't breath, I probably won't try again.

As for the various corps in Microsoft, I also disagree that you have to judge which group is doing what, the company is a whole. That it leaves its divisions (and projects and teams within the company) to compete with each others until one kills the others is a management approach I don't necessarily agree with, if that is indeed what happens inside.

I never ascertained anything about "all developers" or "users", and I don't condemn pragmatism (do yourself a favour and re-read the part about json.net). I'm an OSS developer, you're on my blog, and this is my point of view. The reuse vs. rebuild has been something I've been vocal about for years, way before nuget even existed, and has applied not only to Microsoft, I have discussed/argued this with quite a few OSS developers too that run with it and rarely collaborate. My stance on this has changed over the years, I'm probably softer when it comes to independent OSS projects. My stance doesn't change with Microsoft, because unlike other environments, they have huge control and market share and their decisions have historically tended towards excluding other players, leaving only niches for ISVs.

I'd rather not be in a niche, as an ISV or as an OSS developer. But in the end, as you perfectly describe, if *you* decide to only analyze the acts and not discuss the intent, then anything *I* fight for and anything that *may change in the future* has no impact on anything you value, so I'd argue that there is nothing in what I want Microsoft to become that will give *you* less, and probably give you more, so what's the issue here?

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

kevdog — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:12:54 -0000

Why is it that Microsoft is under some special obligation to join with existing projects and not start their own? An individual is no more required to "justify their choice" to rebuild than MS is. I have always felt your position on this have been driven more by your anger over NuGet than a rational discussion of what is best for users. What is good for OSS developers is not the same as what is good for all developers.

And I beg to differ, Microsoft IS many companies within one. The Office people are going to open-source Word the day I sprout wings and fly.

A discussion of motives is pointless. Knowing why something is done is generally not helpful and leads to faulty reasoning about whether a particular action is good or not. E.g., if you give money to charity, does it matter that you are trying to assuage guilt? Focus on the act itself and whether it is of benefit or not.

Why are you condemning pragmatism? Even assuming you are correct in your assessment of their reasoning (a big assumption), what's wrong with that.

And finally, why is it DHH is considered an OSS folk hero for saying, "I don't owe you shit" and "fuck you" and MS is somehow the devil?

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

johnvpetersen — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:29:48 -0000

While I think things were worse off in the past, they are getting better. The recent OSS announcement was very significant. For those of us that are fans of and believe in the merits of OSS - we have friends in folks like Scott Hunter, Scott Hanselman and Scott Guthrie. Couple that with folks like Glenn Block - there is a lot to be optimistic about. All that said, we need to keep the pressure on. I do believe that at least some folks at MS see the light - realizing that OSS can be very effective at driving the platform - which does help the bottom line.

The next big test is when we start seeing accepted contributions in Web API, MVC, etc. I've submitted my contribution agreement and am awaiting to hear back from MS on that status. I trust others have as well.

Great post...

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Alan Stevens — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:23:17 -0000

I wish I could disagree with any of your conclusions, but I can't. Despite (or perhaps because of) a dozen years on the MS platform, I trust Microsoft less today than ever before.

++Alan

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Ian Davis — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 10:38:22 -0000

Great article. I admire your wholehearted pushes for change.

Re: Microsoft and Open Source

Rob Eisenberg — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 09:57:49 -0000

I couldn't have said it better.

Re: #oredev ReST talk – Links, forms and Unicorns

keylogger — Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:41 -0000

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Re: Http Caching is complicated for everyone

Royale123 — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:38:34 -0000

good,go on seb